Glen (Plabayo BV): Hello, for another week on Netstack.FM We just arrived on FOSDEM 2026 where we will give a presentation about Rama and developing networking services with Rama. and we are well on our way to register as a speaker. Hopefully we will also encounter some people to talk to about networking and protocols at FOSDEM 2026 in Brussels.
Glen (Plabayo BV): We bumped into Terts We interviewed him before in an episode around NLNetLabs and I'm sure it's not going to be the last one that we did with him about NLNetLabs They do lot of interesting stuff and this year they're even celebrating their 25th year anniversary. So there is still a of amazing technology and protocol work to unpack there. But for now want to hear a bit about Thurts and how he's doing and how his talk went, the kind of feedback he got and how Roto is going with those. I still see Roto as a very interesting ⁓ language for plugins that could be very useful and very nice for a lot of people building network services with Rama.
Glen + Terts: You've been here the full two days? Yes, so we arrived Saturday morning very very early and then we're leaving in a bit. So two days, yeah. And you stay in a hotel or something? Yeah, we're staying in a hostel with eight people. All from NLNetLabs No, no. So one from NLNetLabs and then just a bunch of friends. And how was your talk about Was it about Roto? Yes, it was about Roto and also a little bit about how it works under the hood. tried to like because it's a like because it's a roto dev room I was like okay I can't just show how to use it I want to like to the dive deep into how that works under the hood and all the unsafe stuff we have to pull and it I think it went well and I think people liked it I got good good feedback so that's nice. got some interesting questions as well. What kind of question did you get for example? What was the question you liked most? ⁓ So there were some people who like pointed out some really interesting things. There's somebody who said like, yeah, why don't you use Rust's feed tables? And then that gave me a whole opportunity to explain about, I can't use Rust's feed tables because I have to make my own for rotos types and stuff. some of those questions allowed me to explain a little bit more about the things that I didn't have time to say, essentially. develop Roto for your own internal products, are you already aware of other companies or organizations using Roto? ⁓ Well, there's at least one, ⁓ is the Iocane. ⁓ It's essentially, Iocane is a... project that can kind of fend off AI crawlers and send them into a lace of links because otherwise they put too much pressure on some of the servers. And that is used by I think a bunch of servers nowadays ⁓ and by default that does use a roto configuration. So that's nice to hear. And for the rest it's a lot of like... ⁓ Interest but nothing concrete yet, I think. Yeah, it's still very young. Yeah, it is. What do you expect from it yourself? if you're honest, like let's say this year, next year, what is for you on the horizon for Roto? ⁓ It's basically building more features until... It's trying to find out what features people need before they can start using it. And then knocking off those features one by one is kind of my goal for the next year at least. Get it ready for people to use. But understanding what is missing is really important there. Because if I don't know, then I can't do anything about it. And now, your, how is currently, how is it serving you? And what do you see as now the most priority, like what is missing? ⁓ So the weird thing is that our scripts currently are not the most crazy, complicated things. They're actually quite simple. ⁓ It's missing... I imagine you have a backlog, right? Like, the most pressing. Yeah, so there's, like, I want to have something like maps or dictionaries. ⁓ That feels like a big one. And then the other thing is, like, I would love to have first-class functions so that you can use passive function as variable and then do, that you can map over all the elements in a list, for instance, or you could do... ⁓ all sorts of cool stuff like that. would be, I think that is also, and that's also one, because if people wanna make plugins with this thing, for example for an editor or something, they would need to say, they would need to register handlers for certain actions. So you have a key binding that you wanna map to a function in Roto. If you wanna do that process in Roto too, you need to basically say, hey, this key map matches this function. So you need to be able to talk about the function and put that it like registered that way so that requires first class functions. so if you could realize your wildest dreams were wrote to in the next year, what would it be? It would do so much stuff and it would be so fast and it would be... ⁓ but no I think sort of feature completeness at least for the for the for next year is ⁓ is the goal and after that world domination. The wildest dreams is that it helps people and that people can use it in their products and their projects. that I get a lot of feedback from it. That would be lovely. Yeah. Very cool. And so you were here today at FOSDEM. What were some of your favorite talks, specifically around networking? Around networking? Ooh. Or were there not so many networking talks? That I attended, not so much now. Wait, over networking. There was one about a peer-to-peer networking thing in Rust. ⁓ That was very weird and interesting. I liked it. I think it was called IRO. think they call it the Tor of peer to peer or something. Very cool, very private, very interesting. How about you took away from it? That they decided to build that in Rust. Which should be unsurprising, but it's still cool to see people do that crazy stuff. Do you still consider it this point like a gamble? Or do you think it's proven itself and it's a solid choice? I think it's a solid choice, at least on its own, but your team needs to buy into it. A lot of people are ultimately convinced, I think, if they start using it. I think it's sometimes a gamble, but not a big risk. It's a risk that will... that will pay out. Yeah, and so sadly due to illness I missed your colleague and he was going to talk, was it horror stories of DNS or like some like... It was a, he talked about sort of an update on our DNS library. So we have a DNS library that we're developing and some products around it and then he talked about ⁓ what has happened since we presented that here two years ago. ⁓ the DNS sec signer that we've built around it, the little query CLI that we built, ⁓ a lot of tooling for operators ⁓ that we built in the meantime, and that's all based on that library. ⁓ So it was really nice to give the community an update around that and what we've been up to and what they can expect from that library because we also would like to see people using that library. It's not just for our own internal use. We want to show off, these are the things that we've built with it, but we also want your feedback on what this thing could be, what features it's missing, or where it could be improved. ⁓ so that it can actually become a cornerstone of at least the Rust DNS ⁓ community, that would be awesome. And how was it received from the community? think people like to talk. At least looking around the room, ⁓ people seem to like it quite a bit. I think good. Given this weekend and how the two days went, what's your feeling now going home? What you took away from these two days that you maybe looked at differently before this weekend? So one thing that I kind of experienced here now that was very different from two years ago is that there were now a lot of people that I knew from other conferences, through my job, through Rust and the compiler community there as well. ⁓ That's just like... ⁓ That was lovely to see. There were so many interesting people to talk to and that I recognized. I could really feel that community around me and I liked that a lot. Previously, I came here sort of... blank and I didn't have it I came here with with friends ⁓ but not much of a network say which is a very LinkedIn way of talking but like in a a in friends kind of way So I love that. That was lovely to experience, which also meant that I missed a lot of talks, but I had a lot of interesting conversations and saw a lot of interesting people. That's what a lot of conferences are about. nowadays, are some conferences that only doing the on-conference, like side-drag calls. Talking about conferences, how is the preparation for Rust Week going? Rust Week is going quite well. ⁓ our CFP so we're now like fully reading through all the proposals and it's a lot of them and that's amazing and we're yes we're gonna settle that soon ⁓ then we're gonna meet up and do the final selection ⁓ and the rest of the preparation is just going quite well. ⁓ No major hiccups to report. ⁓ And we're really looking forward to it. We actually gave out... ⁓ pins here with the Rust logo on it because we got a ⁓ pin machine. So we'll be bringing that to the conference too. So people can make their own pins of anything they want. They can draw Ferris's or something to... ⁓ So that's the kind of stuff that we're thinking about for the conference. so as to round-up our conversation, is there anything you want to say to the Rust community now that we are starting like a new year? Okay, we're already February, we're still here. There's like a lot of potential still to untap this year. What would you like the Rust community to realize together? Ooh. ⁓ I say, it's mostly like, keep doing what you're doing. ⁓ It's a very cool community, it's a very friendly community. And I think those are the most important parts. We need to keep inviting newcomers, we need to keep helping each other, be nice to each other and all that. ⁓ which is cliche but also very very important and I think the Rust community is doing it very well and that deserves to be said. Yeah well said and we also thank you for your hard work together with your company you build a really cool technology You're welcome on behalf of the entire company. Thank you. Yeah.
Glen (Plabayo BV): So I was walking around and I bumped into Orhun (Ratatui) So we're going to talk with him in a sec. Orhun is a developer and maintainer for Ratatui and also we make use of it in Rama, specifically in the Rama CLI tool to provide a TUI for in case you are connecting to a WebSocket server and the WebSocket handshake is complete it will turn your CLI into a TUI which is driven by Ratatui And so now we're going to switch over to Orhun where we will talk about how Ratatui is going and how FOSDEM was for him.
Glen (Plabayo BV): okay, hello, how are you? ⁓
Orhun (Ratatui): Okay, hello, how are you? Hello, I'm good, how about you? Yeah, I super expected to bump into you because I was just wrapping up our recording. ⁓
Glen (Plabayo BV): Yeah, I super expected to bump into you because I was just wrapping up our recording. But so you are the developer and maintainer of Ratatouille. Yes. And it came from like quite small, but it's becoming bigger and bigger. And I see it more and more appearing. Like how is Ratatouille going this year? Like, and what's the plans for the year to come? Because it's only February. So yeah, it's going amazing, I should say. We just started our...
Orhun (Ratatui): Yes, that's me. year like and what's the plans for the year to come? Yeah it's going amazing I should say we just started our nostd support for embedded applications just before the year started we created a new release so now you can run nostd on nostd with mouse with backhand and I am now working on the documentation and examples so you can expect some cool ⁓
Glen (Plabayo BV): noiseTD support for embedded applications. Just before the year started, we created a new release. So now you can run this as we own noiseTD with mouse. so you can expect some cool
Orhun (Ratatui): cool stuff running on small displays, big displays, microcontrollers. Now we just slowly... ⁓
Glen (Plabayo BV): stuff running on small displays, big displays, know, microcontrollers. Now we're just slowly ⁓ moving away from terminals, not really, but... ⁓
Orhun (Ratatui): moving away from terminals, not really, but just enter a new era of playing some embedded stuff. So it's going to be great, I think. And you even made a web framework? Yeah, that was last year. Every year I'm just trying to do different applications with this framework, because UIs are a problem. And I think terminal UIs are a good way to solve them. It's very simplistic. yeah.
Glen (Plabayo BV): enter a new era of putting some embedded stuff. So it's gonna be great. And you even made like a web framework? Yeah, that was last year. Every year I'm just trying to like do different applications with this framework because UIs are like... And so you travel a lot you go to all the different conferences what's usually the kind of feedback you're getting about like rather to we and expectations that maybe people have So I've seen people use it for system tools games ⁓ Small fun projects here and there and most of the time it's really positive
Orhun (Ratatui): What's usually the kind of feedback you're getting about Likrata 2e and expectations that maybe people have? So I've seen people use it for system tools, games, ⁓ small fun projects here and there and most of the time it's really positive. I really like the feedback that I'm getting and ⁓ I mean, it's just very fun to see, like, on the other side of the world, you just meet people who build stuff at this library, which is amazing. I just really enjoy doing that. And I'll keep, like, traveling and go to conferences and showcase what I am working on and what they can expect from Ratatui yeah. OK. And so there's, another big, not a GUI, but like a GUI framework called...
Glen (Plabayo BV): It's just very fun to see, like, on the other side of the world, you just meet people who build stuff. It's this library, which is amazing. I just really enjoy doing that. And I'll keep traveling and go to conferences and showcase what I am working on and what they can expect from it. Okay, and so there's like another big, not a TUI, but like a GUI framework called
Orhun (Ratatui): Yeah. ⁓
Glen (Plabayo BV): SLINT, I think. And they were particularly focused on embedded. And I bet that they are like on fridges and freezes and wash machines or whatever. Is that like ever an ambition you have? Because I think you could make some really fancy like TUI like interfaces for like, imagine my wash machine, with Ratatui You think that ever could be possible? I think so. I mean, don't get me wrong, we're not competing with any...
Orhun (Ratatui): Is that like every ambition you have? I think you could make some really fancy like 2E like interfaces for like, imagine my washing machine. Yeah. you think that could be possible? I think so. ⁓ I mean, don't get me wrong. We're not competing with any framework. Maybe we are. don't know. I'm just going to, this is open for comments. It's all friendly, Yeah, it's all friendly. So I think you can expect stuff like that. I mean, last year I've seen people run Rosatui on car dashboards, which was, I think,
Glen (Plabayo BV): This is open for comment. It's all friendly right? It's all friendly. So ⁓ I think you can expect stuff like that. mean last year I've seen people run RosyTree on car dashboards.
Orhun (Ratatui): easy and this year you might expect more stuff now that we have this noise to do support which means they the applications will be smaller you can run on many platforms this ranges from not embedded but also like the web stuff as well so you might see as a see going places this year ⁓
Glen (Plabayo BV): year you might expect more stuff now that we have this no STD support which means the applications will be smaller you can run on many platforms this ranges from not embedded but also like the web stuff as well so you might see RSA going places this year. there ever companies approaching you for this or is it always like you maybe trying first and then seeing what happens? ⁓ It's usually just experimenting and just seeing what people
Orhun (Ratatui): It's usually just experimenting and just seeing what people are building and I don't think we got reached out by this embedded stuff yet, but More than we showcase what we can do. I think people get excited and companies will be excited as well. I
Glen (Plabayo BV): building and I don't think we got reached out by this embedded stuff yet but ⁓ more that we showcase what we can do I think people will get excited and companies will be excited as well. And you recently had your musical ⁓ projects around the guitar like first it was tuning but then I think it became more like to actually learn to play. Yeah so my idea was to
Orhun (Ratatui): First it was tuning, but then I think it became more like you learned to play. Yeah, so ⁓ my idea was to teach myself guitar while building this project, but I still don't know how to play guitar. I just built the thing. But hopefully one day if I keep building this project, I assume that I will actually learn how to play it. But yeah, it's going.
Glen (Plabayo BV): teach myself guitar while building this project but I still don't know how to play guitar I just built the thing but hopefully one day if I keep building this project I assume that I will actually learn how to play but yeah it's going
Orhun (Ratatui): It's going alright, I would say I need to port my app to NoSDD now and do a bunch of things, make a new PCB
Glen (Plabayo BV): alright I would say I need to port my app to nostd now and do a bunch of things make a new PCB ⁓
Orhun (Ratatui): and so on. But the idea is there basically. I want to be able to tune my guitar, I want it to show the notes to me, play like a little guitar hero on that. ⁓ Seeing the fretboard visualizations, they're always nice so we'll see how it goes. I want to kickstart it at some point.
Glen (Plabayo BV): so on but the idea is I want to I want to be able to tune my guitar I wanted to show the notes to me playing like a little guitar hero yeah yeah you know seeing the fretboard visualizations they're always nice so you'll see how it goes I want to kickstart it at some point but
Orhun (Ratatui): But let's see.
Glen (Plabayo BV): let's see well hold you back
Orhun (Ratatui): I just need to sit down and write code. With all these channels and stuff, it's not that ⁓ easy sometimes. But I'll focus on that in the upcoming weeks. ⁓
Glen (Plabayo BV): just need to sit down and write code. With all these channels and stuff, it's not that easy sometimes. But yeah, I'll focus on that in the coming weeks. And were you at Fossdam for two days or just today? Two days. And you gave a talk too? No, I was just like networking and talking to people.
Orhun (Ratatui): two days. You gave a talk to? No, was just like networking and talking to people. yeah, I was in the robotics room actually, which was quite interesting. At least two presentations, they had Ratatui dashboards in them, which was a bit surprising. I didn't know people were using it that much, but it was super cool. People are super excited about it.
Glen (Plabayo BV): in the robotics room actually which was quite interesting at least two presentations they had the three dashboards in them which was it was surprising I didn't know people were using it that much but it was super cool people were super excited about it. Very cool and so what was your favorite talk of this FOS demo or your favorite set of talks? that's a hard question because I seen I think five or six talks
Orhun (Ratatui): that's a hard question because I've seen, I think, five or six talks and I think ⁓ in the robotics room, think there was a robot which they have built to help with the golf players or something like that, which was interesting.
Glen (Plabayo BV): think in the robotics room there was a robot which they built to help with the golf players or something like that. Like for accuracy or something or for tracking?
Orhun (Ratatui): Yeah, I think so. And I immediately imagined a Router 2 UI on that. I've been testing two interfaces everywhere. Yeah, definitely. And after that, I
Glen (Plabayo BV): Yeah, I think so. I immediately imagined there was a UI on that. I bet you see two interfaces everywhere. Yeah, definitely. And after that I...
Orhun (Ratatui): just talked to them and said, hey, you can actually do this. I have this little ESP32 display with me right now. I just showed them what you can do with this. And people get excited. I get excited. So yeah, definitely the robotics room was really interesting this year.
Glen (Plabayo BV): just talked to them and said, hey, you can actually do this. I have this little ESP32 display with me right now. I just showed them what you can do with this. People get excited, I get excited. So yeah, definitely the robotics.
Orhun (Ratatui): Yeah.
Glen (Plabayo BV): Yeah, very cool. So thank you very much for your like participating in this small unexpected interview. Yeah, I appreciate it. I was just trying to find some coffee and some people to talk to, but this was definitely better. So thanks for that. Yeah, thank you very much. Bye.
Orhun (Ratatui): Yeah, I appreciate it. I was just trying to find some coffee and some people to talk to but this was definitely better. So thanks for that. Yeah.
Glen (Plabayo BV): So I'm at the end of my journey at FOSDEM 2026 in Brussels. It was a very exciting conference. There were a of amazing talks. There were lot of conversations, but a lot of excitement. It's amazing to see how many people are building really cool stuff around cryptography, networking. decentralized internet security. I also observed lot of excitement when we explained about Rama and I'm very happy that the talk was received quite well. People understood it and the more they learn about it the more excited they get. It's the same kind of experience that we're also getting when we talk with partners and as they adopt technology. As with some other things, it takes a bit to wrap your mind around it, especially because the different kinds of mindsets, the kind of mindset of a tool that works for you, but also the kind of way to think in services all the way down. It can be something you have to get used to. But as we had some conversations today on the conference, it was clear that people do get it and you can see the spark in their eye when they start to realize the potential and realize what is impossible with it. So it's a bright future. Next week we will have a conversation with Mauro will be an interesting conversation where there will be a of protocols regarding mail we can unpack that we didn't cover before. And there are quite some protocols involved in... and email and everything around it. It also won't be the last time that we discuss email protocols and related technologies in Netstack.FM So I'm looking forward to that conversation. But for now, I have to sign off. We will see you next week.
Elizabeth (Plabayo): Netstack.fm is brought to you by Plabayo building secure, open, and resilient infrastructure with Rust protocols, and purpose. This show is also made possible by Rama, the open source networking framework. Plabayo offers service contracts and welcome sponsorships to keep building and supporting its ecosystem. The theme music of this podcast was composed by DJ Mailbox. If you enjoyed this episode, don't forget to subscribe on your favorite podcast platform and leave a five-star review. It really helps others discover the show. Thanks for tuning in. We'll see you next time for the next handshake.